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This is bad news. While there are issues of controversy within Christendom, I would hope that something like homosexuality doesn't become another grey issue.

I'm sorry, but I can't believe you're even considering this worth talking about.

I don't think it should be a gray area either: I think you should absolutely allow gay and lesbian pastors and "affirming" churches to participate in your service. I could go into the theological arguments, but to be honest, theology is beside the point here. If you allow divorced and remarried pastors or even ordained women to use this service, both of which would be offensive to some segment of the church, then it stands to reason that your philosophy is that the churches and pastors on your rolls should be allowed to figure out for themselves what's important to them. If that's true, then you shouldn't restrict who may or may not post, except when you find that someone has posted dishonest or misleading information.

Even churches who believe that homosexuality is a chosen, sinful lifestyle are still enjoined, biblically speaking, to allow gays to attend services. If being sinful (and then refusing to repent until convinced of our sinfulness) means we're not welcome in the pew, then every congregation of the church should be completely empty. It isn't your role to decide whether God has called someone else to do ministry; rather you have been called to help ministers and churches connect with each other. You don't have the authority to appoint a minister to a church, so why not trust the ministers and churches to sort this out for themselves?

In short: as long as they identify themselves honestly as female, or divorced, or even gay, then they should be allowed to sign up and participate.

I walked upon a discussion that was being held by a religous group on the Capitol Mall in Washington DC a year ago. The subject was homosexuality. The tenor of the discussion of course was with customary christian antipathy, rancor and exclusion.

I asked, had anyone ever heard of an hemaphrodite, eunuch or even the androgen babies? I asked how we should treat these populations and whether or not we were placing too much emphasis on genitalia. The conclusion drawn by the audience was that each of those in the categories that I mentioned would have to choose a sexual identity and in the case of the eunuch come up with a sexual body part. Otherwise, they could not enter the Kingdom. EEEKKKKK!!!

I was not surprised at the conclusions that the audience drew, given what I know what most churches believe with respect to the subject of homosexuality.

I provided the audience with 3 scriptures, i.e., John 9:1-3. I now have a complete sermon as a result of what is contained in these scriptures and that discussion. Any of you are welcome to use it, and (I made an adaptation). In particular John 9:2, "...who did sin that this man/woman was born homosexual/lesbian; a hermaphrodite (capable of producing both sperm and eggs); an adrogen baby; black; with downs syndrome; racists like many white christian americans still are ; mute...".

Do you get my drift? The disciples were judgmental of course (much like Christians today who like Peter was willing to call fire down from heaven to burn up those (think of Iraq/Muslims) who do not agree with their beliefs. However, as you look closer at these scriptures or a similar experience that was shared with the, "...I don't eat any unclean..", Peter, you can see that the motives of Jesus generally differ from ours just as they did from Peter's and disciples of his time.

Who sinned that people were born this way, (not to mention your and my sins) by way of introducting a sin nature into the creation? The answer of course was Adam, i.e, with the exception of race. However, many people feel that to be other than white was and is a curse.

Peter had issues and Jeremiah wondered how the Ethiopian could change his skin. For no matter what or when a certain sin or maladaptive behavior manifests itself in our lives, it is because of the nature of sin that all of us are born with. The possibilites, that we are all born with are infinitesimal and again a result of Adam's fall. We are not execmpt either. How it manifests itself is what most of us cannot deal with and make judgments about, i.e., my sin, if I will even admit to one, is not as bad as yours.

With respect to your question posed here, fifty years ago (had the internet been invented and this web site) I am certain that the question would have pertained to black ministers who wanted to utilize this site.

This site belongs to you, so you should do as you fplease. However, keep the future in mind. There is a lot of research going on to determine where homosexuality comes from, i.e., congenitally, environmentally, normonally, etc. Some of us could find out some day that, "...such were some of you", homosexual.

For sure too many of us are still blind!

Rev. Solomon

What's specifically "sad" about this, is that you've cast this in the same light as divorced, and/or female ministers. Every female minister should be offended, as should those who've been hurt by an unfaithful spouse leaving! Those issues have NOTHING to do with this one. This is a question of SIN! The question is... are you going to support those in WILLFUL SIN?

Tell you what. Since you are at it. Why not open your wicca forums, and oh, how about paganism? That way you won't be descriminating against those who don't follow Christ! Just think those wonderful covens can now be affirmed and find each other. After all, its all about the money (I mean calling) to help people find their place of service. Right? I mean, who are you to judge?

"This is a question of SIN! The question is... are you going to support those in WILLFUL SIN?"

Anonymous, you've missed the point: according to many churches, it is a SIN to ordain a woman. According to many churches, it is a SIN to employ a pastor who has divorced and remarried. Those things are considered sinful because of the particular church's interpretation of Scripture, which is EXACTLY the same as homosexuality, or more specifically, the ordination of homosexuals to ministry. And we're only talking about Christians, unless you want to go against Scripture, which clearly teaches that one's confession of faith admits one to the kingdom: it is perfectly possible to be gay AND Christian, though it isn't possible to be both Wiccan or Pagan and Christian.

According to Romans, it's a sin to go against civil authority...are you going to ban ministers who own radar detectors? According to the OId Testament, it's an abomination to eat lobster or shrimp; are you going to ban ministers who eat at Red Lobster? Are you going to ban ministers who gossip? Tell off-color jokes? Drink a beer at the baseball game? Each of those things is considered by some church to be sinful. After all, we're talking about supporting WILLFUL SIN! Or are you one of those who believes that some sins don't really matter, and other sins do?

It's just my opinion, but I believe all of us engage in willful sin, and refuse to admit our wrongdoing or confess our sin to God...you might like to believe that you don't, but I disagree. Only sinners can benefit from God's grace...I suspect that means both you and me.

Rev. Solomon, I respectfully suggest you do "err, not knowing the word, nor power of God."

First, it wasn't Peter who suggested calling down fire, it was James and John in Luke 9:54

Secondly, the passage you refer to in John 9:1-3 is incomplete. The WHOLE POINT is that the blindness was NOT caused by God because of this man's or parents sin. Rather it was ALLOWED so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. And then Jesus displays it by HEALING HIM of his blindness.

If you want to assign homosexuality to being innate and you want to use the above passage to apply -- then you'd have to conclude that God allows it ONLY so that they may be HEALED of it.

For the record, I disagree that homosexuality is innate.

And for the record, there are NO TRUE hermaphrodites (properly so called) in human beings. The sexual organs may be confusing but biologically speaking the human is either male, or female, or neither - but never both - in that they cannot reproduce on their own.

REV MIKE:

Your arguement centers around two points.

1. Churches disagree on biblical interpretation.

2. We all sin willfully.

Your conclusion is: therefore we ought to allow the blatent, willful sin of homosexuality to be encouraged, even promoted.

Last time I checked - EVERYONE who calls themselves Christian - agrees that you must TURN from your sin and repent. Metanoia.

And as much as you may not like it, the Bible explicitly says the area of sexual sin has worse implications than others. (1Cor 6:18)

Lastly, the blood of Christ is not an excuse to sin! It is not a keep on sinning without consequence card! In fact, God has some of the strongest warnings against the kind of things you are suggesting.

I suggest you re-read Heb. 10:26-30 and since your name suggests you teach others, you might consider re-reading James 3:1 before you comment on this again.

Keith

Keith wrote: "Your arguement centers around two points.
1. Churches disagree on biblical interpretation.
2. We all sin willfully.
Your conclusion is: therefore we ought to allow the blatent, willful sin of homosexuality to be encouraged, even promoted."

That's quite a leap, Keith, from what I actually said, which was "If you allow divorced and remarried pastors or even ordained women to use this service, both of which would be offensive to some segment of the church, then it stands to reason that your philosophy is that the churches and pastors on your rolls should be allowed to figure out for themselves what's important to them."

The question was whether or not gay ministers and/or "affirming" churches should be allowed to use this service in trying to match pastors and congregations. You apparently believe that this would be the same as "we ought to allow the blatent, willful sin of homosexuality to be encouraged, even promoted." I beg to differ. I am in no way suggesting that people who have been convicted of sin should go on doing what they know to be wrong. I am, however, suggesting that a service such as ministrystaffingsearch.org shouldn't attempt to be a vehicle of judgment. I'm not advocating antinomianism; I'm advocating the biblical view that's expressed in the passage you mentioned in Hebrews: let God judge.

On the other hand, you seem to be suggesting that some sinners should be prohibited from the service while others are not. No one can repent of any sin unless the Holy Spirit convicts him or her of that sin...there has to be a "consciousness of guilt," to borrow a phrase from the legal profession. Everything you have said about repentance applies to all sin, not merely sexual sin; the individual verse you mention says only that sexual sin is qualitatively different from other sorts of sin. It doesn't say that sexual sins are the only important ones, or that other sins have less power to corrupt than sexual ones. You have to remember that gay Christians aren't going to simply take your word for it that a committed, monogamous homosexual relationship is the same thing that Paul condemns, or that it's worse, either spiritually or societally, than an abusive or neglectful heterosexual relationship.

James, of course, is very clear that teachers have special responsibility, and I take that very seriously. That's why I don't condemn entire groups of people en masse, and would rather err on the side of mercy than judgment. Since you have your Bible out, you might take a look at James 2:8-13.

Rev Mike,

I agree God says mercy is VITAL. And "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."

Yet, we're not discussing a "mercy issue." It is a holiness issue. Nobody EVER suggested we shouldn't extend mercy and forgiveness to those who request or desire it.

The issue we are dealing with is one of WILLFUL, UNREPENTANT sin. And of "congregations who heap around themselves preachers who teach what their, itching ears want to hear.." (Check the context, lovers of themselves and pleasure more than God, and unwilling to accept the POWER of God who delivers from sin.) We are to "turn away" from such. And yes, if they are part of the community of faith, and are in sin, and are unwilling to stop - then discipline is in order.

However, I realize this is about if we should include this kind of thing on the board or not. I can tell you this plainly and simply. When you allow "SINNING" or what you call affirming churches to start seeking gay pastors. Then it is the same as allowing molesting priests to seek congregations that "affirm" molesting as a life style. (Okay if you don't buy "molesting" cause its one way then simply insert beastiality - one could argue for a loving giving relationship with a dog.)

The result? I guarentee no self respecting man or women of God will be caught "dead" placing their resume' on here. Furthermore, I can assure you that you will be kissing all conservative, bible believing churches goodbye. We will turn away in mass.

Don't believe me? Try it and see.

Keith

Keith,

I'm sure you're absolutely right that allowing some pastors and churches to post will turn off other churches and pastors. What you haven't answered yet, though, is how all this pertains to divorced and remarried pastors and female pastors. Doesn't allowing them to post risk turning off churches who are offended by those situations? Isn't it true that many churches see remarriage after divorce as unrepentant, willful sin? Isn't it true that many churches see it as sinful for a woman to have authority over men in church leadership? How can you be so certain that it's okay for those folks to post, but not gays?

I read the same Bible you do, and I don't understand it the same way you do. Does that mean that I'm incapable of sustaining a salvific relationship with God? And if this is, as you say, a holiness issue, then what is the rationale for singling out one type of ongoing sinful activity?

I'm afraid you haven't convinced me--not that you have to, of course. In the end, Manfred has to decide what he believes is the best answer to this question. The very fact that he's asked for opinions indicates that he knows people of good will can disagree about this issue. My opinion is that if he doesn't let gay ministers post, he'll also have to disallow divorced and remarried ministers, women, and ministers whose children aren't well-behaved, plus any ministers who smoke, drive faster than the speed limit, or drink unless they all repent.

Since I was the first to post a comment, let me add some clarity...

This isn't a grey issue... it's a black and white one.


Now, I say that as someone who doesn't pick a lot of issues to be black and white on, but follow a line of thought I experienced back in college from one of my professors...

Him: Is slavery wrong?

All of us: No!

Him: Why?

All of us: Because it demeans another person.

Him: Slavery is in the Bible, though.

All of us: Yes, but that was a cultural issue.

Him: Is ordaining women wrong?

All of us: No!

Him: Why?

All of us: Because it demeans another person to say you can't minister because of your gender.

Him: Women being submissive is in the Bible, though.

All of us: Yes, but that was a cultural issue.

Him: Is homosexuality wrong?

All of us: Yes!

Him: Why?

All of us: Because it demeans God's plan for the sexes. It's clearly in the Bible...

Him: So... how is this any different from the other issues?

All of us: Well, um... er...

Him: You know, someday we'll be discussing homosexuality on the same level.

All of us: Yeah, whatever... never will happen.



Funny, but he was absolutely right. And so I must digress back to my modern roots (even though I've become a good postmodern) and say, "Sorry... it's time for the Bible to speak its mind regardless of culture."


And in this case we should not support homosexual movements within the church.

I totally agree.

My problem is and continues to be that Rev. Mike wants to make this a cultural issue and ask "how is this different from divorced pastors or women in ministry issues." I'd say those are "rabbit trails" and probably best not to discuss them in this context as they are completely separate issues.

However, let it suffice to say...

Homosexuality as I've been discussing it is an "on going sin" and therefore not the same as divorce. Divorce may have happened in the past and God may have forgiven – therefore, not the same. I'd say if a person WAS a homosexual in the past and it is forgiven - there's nothing to advertise so this discussion is moot.

I realize your concern probably centers on the remarried, and I don't have time nor place to discuss that at this time.

Suffice it to say:
1. God showed his plan for families and sexuality in Genesis.
2. It was restated in the law regarding marriage AND sexuality issues.
3. It was reaffirmed by Jesus when he said, "A man shall leave his parents.... cleave unto his wife and the two shall become one."
4. It was restated AGAIN by Paul in Romans when he warned against homosexuality.
5. Ephesians 5 discusses YET AGAIN GOD'S plan that also mirrors the church and Christ!

Given all of this (and I've only scratched the surface.) I’d say God’s position on it is pretty obvious.

Perhaps you could show the following please.

1. Where God said homosexual relationships are to be a model to follow for his church and/or kingdom?

2. Where in Levitical law are proper guidelines for a homosexual relationship outlined?

3. Where did Jesus affirm homosexuality?

4. Where ANY passage in the Bible affirms, or encourages a homosexual union?

(I can show you plenty that discourage it. Although, some may attempt to argue cultural reasons against each passage I give; The fact is where the Bible interprets the Bible the following is obvious...)

Support and affirmation of a gay relationship as normative or encouraged = 0 passages.

Places where it is strictly forbidden or male/female is presented as God's ideal = numerous passages.

Thanks for the discussion.

Keith

If we, who are in leadership atest to the fact that we are governed by the Bible as being the infallable word of God, Then we attest that God's word is law in our lives. In the realm of today's theologians, they wish to make the word of God to be a pacifier rather than what it is.. An enforcer. To compromise on the word of God is not an option. It is specific in scope and depth. This modern approach to be cushy with everyone is not, in my opinion, acceptable to God, in view of His word. If we begin to compromise, then in essence, we are calling God a liar. This is totally unacceptable to every true, repentative believer of God through Jesus Christ. Instead of trying to find a counter argument to accept Gays and Lesbians into Leadership positions, we ourselves must revisit the conviction walls and truly ask ourselves if we have been redeemed! Let us apply this ancient Text of truth to this 21st Century life, and call a lie a lie, a sin a sin, and the enemy the enemy. Love and encourage our Brothers and Sisters, yes. Compromise on the Values of Christianity, and negate the relevance of the price which was paid for us all.....NEVER!

In reply to anonymous...

This is Reverend Solomon again.

I would like to simply say to \"anonymous\", who replied and corrected my insertion of the wrong name when I referred to a secenario where Jesus rebuked the spirit of sectarianism; I would like to thank you for correcting me for injecting Peter's name. In my haste to weigh in on the subject I certainly misspoke there in referring to Peter.

The personal comments I will just take in stride, for Jesus was even accused of having a devil. So being told that I don\'t know the word or the power of God doesn\'t bother me, for I received much the same from christians that day on the Mall.

This is a very useful forum in my opinion. Even though we do not all agree on every point, we do have to continue these discussions on issues that affect all of mankind particularly the body of Christ.

Love, Peace & Grace!

I thank you for all of your courage in speaking your minds, and hearts, and opening the Word of God to seek His answers....all of which are nowhere but upon those pages.

And, thank you Rev. Solomon for your humility in admitting mistakes, sin or weaknesses... which is one common thread among us ALL.

I'm grateful for forums such as this, too... May God humble us, help us to appreciate the differences with which He formed each of us, and make clear to us what He would have us see...

rev. solomon said research is going on to find out where homosexuality comes from. it comes from our own sinfulness and unwillingness to do what gods word says.if you go to romans 1 vs. 18-32 the word clearly tells us. we need to put all this wordly thinking, things we want to hear to appease ourselves or others aside and get back to gods word (the bible).

Peace & Grace,

Ironically, I was reading St. Matthew 19:12 last night, on the subject of Eunuchs, and to my surprise the on-line newsletter, that I have come to enjoy, popped up this morning.

Matthew 19:12 is worth quoting in this forum: For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb (no sin on their part); and there are some eunuchs which were made eunuchs of men (no sin on their part); and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves (personal action)eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake..."

Ministers, frankly, I believe that some were and are born (oversimplification) homosexual; organicity, a form of Lemarckism, hormonal? And I believe that some slide into homosexuality as a result of environment, precondition, condition or as a result of childhood or other sexual abuse; and others have simply chosen the lifestyle, (something that many of you believe about all homsexuals).

As I challenged those on the Mall last year, how could someone with a congenital problem have sinned before he was born (to cause the condition of blindness)? Some have suggested that these folks believed in reincarnation, and ergo this boy had sinned in another life which resulted in his being born blind in this lifetime. Who was really blind in this story?

You know what I am sensing ministers, that too many of you have gone beyond trying to identify and deliver one from sin and have slipped into fear, hatred or outright bias, as a result of being shaped by the culture and not the Word. Possible? I cited Peter and Jeremiah before, both being guilty at least of bigotry if not down-right religous, racial or cultural bias. For some of you, why don't you save God the trouble in the Judgment and just go out now and hang or burn (witch trials) up everyone that is experiencing some kind of sexual deviancy (i.e, that that is away from the norm or, majority)? For isn't this what we do in one form or another in a majoritarian society. Are you then only using scripture as a cloak to express your own antipathy towards certain individuals or populations, as a result of your own fear, hatred or bias?

Again, how many of you can honestly say that what you hate, (even what the scripture defines as sin), is the sin; or is it your own self-righteousness and bias that has you so wound and bound up? Remember, Jesus was the Word and he did not walk around with the anger and hatred that too many seem to display towards any condition, which is what I believe that we are truly talking about in some instances today (for many homosexuals, an inexplicable and for some an unwanted condition). But again Remember Peter, who himself did not eat any unclean thing. Do you eat unclean things?

There are people hurting out there, children, young adults and even adults, ministers, politicians, et al. They have no where to turn. If they come to you, will you explain your bias or will you have the love and sensitivty to reach out to them and intervene with love? I have seen too many people, even after they leave church and hear the ministerial rantings, ravings and pontifications during the Sunday morning sermon (minus love), leave church and drive over to the mental health center and ask for help with a myriad of problems (not only homosexuality). I know, because I was on duty many times when I was not pastoring, to some of your chagrin, when they came asking for help. Why do people leave church and go to secular institutions and ask for help? You have the medical bag, however, are you using everything that is contained within the bag, or are you simply giving everyone a methaphorical shot - The Law of the Instrument?

And to the more self-righteous of you, if any of you are, I have seen them come from the so-called full Gospel/pentecostal, born-again filled with the spirt churches as well! Ah, don't get mad for thats where I am from(-: Yes, saved, sanctified, filled with the Holy Spirit (The second grace to some of you), spoke with tongues, preached, evangelized, prophesied, pastored, participated in healings and deliverance(s), etc".

The fact is, we don't know what, and this will shock some of you to hear this, what Paul's biases were. He acknowledged before that he spoke at times by permission, and not always as a reuslt of divine revelation. I believe that Paul would be open to learning from us today. I believe that Paul spoke in Romans, as one of you referred to, based on his understanding, and he was speaking in a specific, and not all encompassing context!

Gentleman and ladies, something is telling me that, with regard to what we refer to as sexual perversion, there is a lot more to this than meets the eyes. Why are some individuals more prone to what we view as perversions than others?

Further, something tells me that many of those who commented about homesexuality or being effeminate in the bible (not Jesus), were not learned men on the subject. They may have simply been expressing their understanding, biases and/or expresing the conclusions of their culture. And I am not mad at them for that, we all do that.

I am a part of those who want to help those who are struggling with any kind of problem that they have. And I know that it cannot be done when you come from an biased, self-righteous, lofty or arrogant mindset. This expidemic, of mixed-sexualty, is spreading. Have you noticed?

Now, I can pretty much anticipate the response that I will get (I'm ready), nevertheless I will keep on trying to seek answers, and in turn try to help those who are struggling with whatever sin, malady or confusion that they may be experiencing, even yours!

And I will encourage you to re-examine your beliefs and motives (self-actualization)and determine where you are coming from, i.e., "...what spirit are you of"?

And let me close with this (forgive the length), reread the 8th chanpter of 1st Corinthians). I asked God why there was so much division among the churches, and among church leaders, particularly when we all say that we serve the same God. He referred me to this text, and his answer to me was, "because they seek an answer in theology and knowldge, and not Love", God is Love. The texts are to help us, but Jesus is the Word!

Gentleman and ladies, God is love. After you have finished with knowledge, theology and polemics, go back to Love and start looking for your answer there. I gurantee you that it will help you to remove your biases, and help you to see people and there needs as God sees them, and then you will begin to approach them as God does! And you will even approach the sciptures differently, not as legalism, but as King David approached God's laws, ordinances and precepts, i.e, with Love.

For it is not the whole who need a physician..." Clearly some of you don't think that you are in need of a Physician, but there are many people who need a true physician to help them to deal with inexplicable and at times sin-caused issues, sometimes Adam's and not their own sin. Lets not create an atmosphere where they lanquish in their problem rather than feel that they can come and get competent and loving help.

Again, love peace & grace and send on the replies (-:

Rev. C. Solomon

just a thought... Christ died in order to pay for our sins and to free us from the mastery of sin and the power of Satan therefore as children of the living God and slaves of righteousness should we not, by the power of the HOly Spirit, strive to put off the old self and put on the new self? Especially the shepherds of the church those who are called to be "above reproach" not just good people. As a congregant, I come to church because it is the community of God. We need to walk in the light because through CHrist we are the light. Therefore, I think that it is a little be oxymoronic to be a gay pastor leading a congregation. I think that pop culture has infiltrated into the church where now we are even considering homosexual pastors to be "ok" I don't know about this. I was watching Oprah today and it was about parents finding out that their children were gay. As I was watching, I realized that culture has said that being gay is alright. But should the body of Christ, those who have been bought with his blood, also condone it? I think not.. And when we do sin willfully, isn't a reflection of our ungratefulness of the work that Christ as attained for us? Trampling upon this blood? Not just homosexuality but all sin... what's the solution? repentance and fleeing from sin.. however a homosexual pastor is CONTINUOUSLY neglecting, despising the work of Christ. I definitely do not a want a pastor who is actively sinning against the Lord without any sign of repentance.

Rev. Solomon,

You are correct: LOVE is the most important issue here!

Let's review what Love is. . .

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

I'll agree with the need to be patient, kind, not rude or etc. But I think what you miss is the last line I quoted:

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

The problem is Rev. Solomon is that love is NOT love when it rejoices in evil. Like when it suggests we have marriage ceremonies that mock every citation in scripture regarding GOD'S PLAN for marriage.

It is love that is patient when a person is blind to their sin. It is love that chooses to not be rude when they continue in the sin. But it is LOVE THAT CONFRONTS EVIL and refuses to delight in it!

The type of love you've suggested is the worldly type: "Let them alone, lets all just get along." No, sometimes love says, "No! It is more important to help someone get free and escape hell than it is to "get along."

And since you've ignored my previous post, once again I state for you the BIBLE interpreting the BIBLE regarding this issue. Have you sincerely read what I wrote and prayed about it?

Suffice it to say:
1. God showed his plan for families and sexuality in Genesis.
2. It was restated in the law regarding marriage AND sexuality issues.
3. It was reaffirmed by Jesus when he said, "A man shall leave his parents.... cleave unto his wife and the two shall become one."
4. It was restated AGAIN by Paul in Romans when he warned against homosexuality.
5. Ephesians 5 discusses YET AGAIN GOD'S plan that also mirrors the church and Christ!

Given all of this (and I've only scratched the surface.) I’d say God’s position on it is pretty obvious.

Perhaps you could show the following please.

1. Where God said homosexual relationships are to be a model to follow for his church and/or kingdom?

2. Where in Levitical law are proper guidelines for a homosexual relationship outlined?

3. Where did Jesus affirm homosexuality?

4. Where ANY passage in the Bible affirms, or encourages a homosexual union?

(I can show you plenty that discourage it. Although, some may attempt to argue cultural reasons against each passage I give; The fact is where the Bible interprets the Bible the following is obvious...)

Support and affirmation of a gay relationship as normative or encouraged = 0 passages.

Places where it is strictly forbidden or male/female is presented as God's ideal = numerous passages.

In HIS love,
Keith

It sounds like the leaders may be blind if this is even a consideration. Please stand for something.

Skip

Thanks Keith,

For the scripture says, "For scarecely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us".

Are we willing to die from ourselves in order to win the (poorly defined but so-called) homosexual to Christ. Frankly, we don't know how many homosexual pastors there are, do we?

For example, when I was at Stanford several years ago, one of the student groups invited a very prominent Pastor from Washington DC to be their keynote speaker. I attended the affair. This Pastor, who I won't name, was asked whether or not he slept with boys. His answer, and I trust that this won't be too hard for any of your ears was, " I will do whatever I have to in order to get my nut".

As he stood transfixed in front of us in his clerical regalia, clergy collar, black suit and all, silence came over the room. A group of students sitting in the front of the hall high-fived each other. The majority of us looked at each other and asked whether our ears were deceiving us or did he just say what we thought he said? We were in shock!

Well there was no mistake. This phenonenom is not new. Did anyone read the document that was handed done in the Vatican last week about gays in catholic seminaries?

I was shocked at Stanford, and equally disappointed by the handling of this matter in the Catholic Church. See, I don't believe that anyone is encouraging anyone to commit or to continue in sin here, for God knows that none of us do(-:, do we?

I simply believe that there is more going on here than meets the eye. I wonder, will the church be able to stand up to meet this challenge? For we know that the church on earth has failed with so many issues before. For to many churches and ministers, the earth is still flat!

To all of us I say, wake up for God has given us many tools and resources that we can avail ourselves are of today. Stop being so narrow-minded for people are dying out there.

We need to freely discuss issues, and to bring in information that we have today that many in the early church did not have or understand, then we can truly help deliver people or understand what is going on with some.

And we won't understand it as long as we keep using fear tactics and misinterpretation of scripture in order to reach the goal.

For what will keep happening is that our sons and daughters will continue to hold it all in as they lapse into confusion. And that is where Satan will get his victory.

Jesus took the criticism for spending time with the great unwashed (sinners). Some of you are going to have to get your white sheets dirty. If Jesus could hang out with sinners, we should be able to hang out with people with conditions that we simply cannot fully explain.

Certainly a so-called homosexual minister writing into a blog won't destroy us. Perhaps we can win and his church with our love.

As a side note, the first client that I ever saw while going through training at our Counseling Cneter years ago, was a black youngster who looked to be about 16 years old, who came into the center one day.

His style of dress was hip-hop. He was not effeminate at all. With his head hung down, he asked for help. He said, "I am homosexual and I don't want to be one".

Another client was brought to me at the clinic where I worked years ago. His problem? He recently took a kitchen knife and tried to castrate himself. In fact he had removed a portion of his testicle. He was so confused and angry. We began an intervention and treatment plan for him. The first youngster did not return.

What would you folks do, tell these folks that you are sinners and to simply stop sinning?

Frankly, I would prefer to see some of these people go to a secular counseling institution than have to deal with some of our more dogmatic churches or ministers.

One major problem I think that we have in Christendom is our limited understanding of too many things, including scripture at time. For too many of us the world is still flat.

Someone took umbrage with what I said about hermaphrodites. However, it is a fact there are what we refer to as hermaphrodites in the human race, there are eunuchs, there are intersex and androgen humans. You cannot deny that. They are born that way. Their parents many times choose their sexual identities for them.

Why, rhetorically, because they are sinners? Or, did there parents sins cause them to be born that way? Of is there something else taking place as a result of Adam's fall to cause these anomalies?

Should we include all of these folks under the churches definition of homosexuality/effeminate? Should we continue to deny what factually exists?

There is an epidemic occuring in the human race and it is spreading fast. Will the ministers be prepared to meet it head on, for example by teaching that Romans chapter explains where homosexuality comes from? How does an eight year old child that you would refer to as homosexual fit into Romans Chapter 1?

I would like to ask all of you, at what point does a person become a homosexual? Is a child that has never engaged in same sex behavior a homosexual? Is it the behavior, for in the protestant churches now I hear some teaching that as long as you don't engage in the act, then you its okay. Okay what? To be a homosexual?

Peace & Grace
Rev. C. Solomon

I defitnely want to comment on this issue because there are so many people dealing with this issue and I am one of them. There seems to be alot of judging going on from some of you. When has any person become worthy to judge the sin(s) of another person, except God? Since homosexuality is such a great issue nowadays, it would seem like those who are Christians would begin to pray about it, and not continue to talk about them/us! One thing that I have learned is that, because of people who "bash" or talk about homosexuals, alot of them/us have turned away from God. That is why you now have churches who welcome gay people such as the mentioned ministry. I have a close friend who has almost totally given up on the church because when he was a teenager, he went to an "elder of the church" for counseling, because he had "feelings" for men, and the "elder" asked him to perform oral service. So tell me how you THINK would've reacted in that situation.......We as Christians should be concerned about a persons souls more than we are about their sins. The sin is not in a person having a "feeling", it's when they ACT on that feeling. No I am not excusing "ANY" sin, because sin is sin, but if "that" is a person's issue, then let God deal with them and you FAST and pray. Most of us do more talking than we do praying, and that is an issue. It seems as if alot of "older", supposedly "mature" Christians have forgotten about the things they've been through in life. No one except Jesus lived a perfect life and there are still some things about his life here on earth that we don't know about. Don't forget where you've come from, and never forget that you need to share your testimony. I think that is the reason so many children have gone astray because parents forsake to be real and honest with them. This is MORE than a worthy issue to talk about because it is affecting SO many people. I have two questions before I go...Should homosexuals be excommunicated from the church altogether? and does that include the great number of "DL" men and women as well?

J.

Rev. Solomon,

Again I think you missed my questions so for the third time I'll restate them. I think its a very simple presentation.

Have you sincerely read what I wrote and prayed about it?

The teaching is pretty obvious for those who "would see."
1. God showed his plan for families and sexuality in Genesis.
2. It was restated in the law regarding marriage AND sexuality issues.
3. It was reaffirmed by Jesus when he said, "A man shall leave his parents.... cleave unto his wife and the two shall become one."
4. It was restated AGAIN by Paul in Romans when he warned against homosexuality.
5. Ephesians 5 discusses YET AGAIN GOD'S plan that also mirrors the church and Christ!

Given all of this (and I've only scratched the surface.) I’d say God’s position on it is pretty obvious.

Perhaps you could show the following please.

1. Where God said homosexual relationships are to be a model to follow for his church and/or kingdom?

2. Where in Levitical law are proper guidelines for a homosexual relationship outlined?

3. Where did Jesus affirm homosexuality?

4. Where ANY passage in the Bible affirms, or encourages a homosexual union?

(I can show you plenty that discourage it. Although, some may attempt to argue cultural reasons against each passage I give; The fact is where the Bible interprets the Bible the following is obvious...)

Support and affirmation of a gay relationship as normative or encouraged = 0 passages.

Places where it is strictly forbidden or male/female is presented as God's ideal = numerous passages.

You asked in your last email how do we help those trapped in the sin of homosexuality. Well the first step is for THE PERSON WHO WANTS TO GIVE THE HELP to accept what the Bible clearly teaches!

I don't think anyone here has suggested we could just tell people to just "Stop it! Cause its sin!"

Agreed, ANY compulsory behavior or slavery to any kind of sin usually needs much more than just a statement of the law of right and wrong. But at some point that is the place to begin! Until a soul stops excusing sin, or trying to make the behavior “okay” in the eyes of God - it cannot be resolved. Jesus said, “It is the SICK who are in need of a doctor,” but what if the sick claim they are healthy and need no physician?

Having experienced healing from some compulsory sinful behaviors in my life, I can tell you it may take some time. You may have to address “root causes,” there may even be family curses to renounce, and mentoring to be given. Yet, every foothold of the devil must be renounced. I highly suggest those who are interested in learning more about healing to explore the more reputable deliverance ministries out there as well as taking advantage of reparative therapies. If you need a place to start post an email address here and I’ll try to forward some to you.

Lastly, it is further agreed, the help is received better if that helpful info comes from a loving friend. If the person doesn't accept that help, at that point all we can do is accept and love the person without excusing the sin. (Some have suggested we not only excuse the sin but - we just allow that person to become a leader in Christ's church - and to model and teach error. That we should ignore obviously biblical teaching... please see above questions if you are unclear about this biblical teaching.)

Once again I kindly remind you that the above questions were based on biblical teaching, not cleverly invented stories or scenarios nor human reasoning. It simply asks, “What does the Bible say about...” Try to address them please.

In HIS love,
Keith

Manfred Schreyer, thank you for this forum and the two excellent articles that you shared. Now with respect to this subject I have probably written more to this forum than anyone.

This issue of so-called homosexuality is bigger than any of us, and in my opinion should be placed high on the agendas of all of our churches (and appropriately discussed during our church conferences). I think it would be a good idea to include anthropologists, historians, and members of the scientific and medical communities at those conferences. And the discussions should go beyond, homosexuality is a sin and they are all going to hell and, whats next on the agenda? For after all we are talking about God's children.

Ministers, we are never going to help people as long as we stay with our narrow understanding of such a broad subject, and for that matter any other subject. Perhaps if we would simply condemn homosexuality more, you know just preach at people more, the problem will just go away, right? Anita Bryant tried that, it did not work, and Rev. Billy Graham, said that we should not single out a single group to pick on.

Now some of you probably won't care for what I am about to say and I am sure that you are already suspect of my sincerity anyway, however, I will say it anyway (for I believe that I am speaking to ministers and I am not trying to shake anyones faith).

When we confine ourselves to 66 books, and our interpretations of these 66 books (that were voted upon by a group of well-intentioned men) to the exclusion of everything else, we do a disservice to those who will listen to and follow us. In fact, I believe that we are prolonging the problem, and forcing people to suffer longer, as we run away from all truths!

We were at dinner one day when I asked members of my church that were sitting around the table, who was right, i.e., the church or the medical community with respect to the issue of alcoholism? For some in the medical community treat alcoholism as a disease and of course many in the church believe that it is a sin. My member wanted to know, what was wrong with her pastor? Pastor, Paul said that alcoholics won't enter the kingdom. My respone, flesh and blood won't enter the kingdom, no flesh. She left the church shortly after because she felt that her pastor had gone off of the deep end. I ask you ministers, sin or disease, or both?

As most of you should already know, many of the men involved in creating the original cannon were in disagreement about which books should and should not be included. Yet, many of you have concluded that this is the unadulterated word of God! Many of our most infamous preachers will say that you either except it all or you except none of it. I don't believe that either. You can believe one scripture to the saving of your soul without knowing whether the rest of the Bible even exists.

I personally believe that there is enough in the 66 books that should, just as the Law did for early believers, bring one to Christ. [The scriptures also told us that all of the books in the world could not contain the works of Jesus-we don't have it all folks}. But Jesus said that he would send another comforter to guide us into all truth. Remember?

When I was in school we were studying the book of Job. One day I asked the professor in class, professor who was standing there recording all these dialogues, in essay form, between Job and his friends (not to mention the young man who was there)? Well of course, as I am sure that many of you will say, I knew it; my classmates also thought that I was a heathen. Some wondered what I was doing there at a religous academy, and, how could I ask such a question?

Too many of our ministers and teachers come out of similar christian schools who accept the dogma but never ask reasonable questions.

But I read in scripture where it said, "prove all things and hold fast to that which is good". Of course in our new interpretations of the Bible we have changed the meaning of that unadulterated part of the word of God as well, haven't we?

Well I survived, for the professor rescued me from torment and torture by my fellow-classmates with a wonderful explanation that shocked all who were in the room. I will leave it to you to figure out what he may have said.

I do not believe that there are any lies in the Bible/ translations that we have today. But I stop at that, for we know that there were problems with translation, interpretation, chronology, numerology and manuscript support of some texts.

I believe that a lot of what is written in the Bible is (theos pneustos) scripture. I don't have a problem with that. However, some parts of the canon were not God breathed, and that does not contradict what Paul said! Now if we take every single scripture in the Bible (as we have interpreted it), and God knows most of us don't agree about the meaning of too many scriptures, how can we exclude everything else that does not go along with our limited points of view? Are we afraid of being proved wrong or slightly off-base?

This particular issue that we have been discussing tells me a lot about the church, i.e., whether we are a part of the church whose mission is the saving of souls, or on the other hand are we a part of the church that is here for the condemning of souls.

I am concerned about the church, given its responsibility to God and its mission in society. In its place of prominence, the institutional church often falls down. For example, a great portion of the misguided church condoned and supported slavery in America for centuries.

The church (some of you on the Religous Right won't like this)stood by, along with the U.S. government, while black Americans continued to be discriminated against in this country if not right in their own churches.

Today, we celebrate Rosa Parks' contibution to America. However, why did she and so many suffer the indignities that they did for so long? Where was the Executive Judicial or Legislative Branches of the government? Where where state and local officals, many of whom attended church? Where were the pastors and preachers? Why is it that even the Rev. Billy Graham, when invited to stand with Dr. King at the Lincoln Memorial during the March on Washington and tell the country that racism was wrong, decline? In fact he confessed later that he felt that Dr. King and the civil rights marchers were trouble makers. Wow, can the church be wrong? Look how long it took for him to come around.

Can you imagine that, if Rev. BIlly Graham and Dr. King stood there together proclaiming the word of Christ. But think of how many who suffered because Rev. Graham and others chose not get involved with civil rights, if not human rights. Rev. Graham unfortunately reminds us of the disciples that Jesus asked to watch with him when he was in his agony, he too was asleep. And if Dr. King was a type of Christ who died on the Christ, Rev. Graham, along with many other church leaders, were like the disciples who went away and hid. I ask you, how many others are suffering today like the so-called Homosexuals, because you won't get involved except to codemn?

Today the church stands in support of the American Killing Machine that is destroying and wreaking havoc on the lives of innocent people in the sovereign nation of Iraq, Abraham's descendants. And please review the book of Genesis where the Angel of the Lord spoke from heaven to Hagar just as the Angel spoke to the virgin Mary in the new testament. Yet the church stands by and nods while innocent lives are being destroyed. Whee is the outcry from the church? WMD's or not, what gives Americans the right murder other innocent people, Lord knows we don't have any WMD's do we?

One of the churches foremost leaders, a few weeks ago, seemed to be advocating the murder of the leader of a sovereign nation. In many pulpits today you hear sermons about 'just wars', even more sermons than you hear on the saving of souls and living according to the words of Jesus. Why and where has the American church lost its direction? How can the church be sensetized with respect to [homosexuals] or anyone else for that matter who don't look like, act like or walk like...?

When you mix behavior with bias, there will be an undesirable an self-righteous outcome! To the so-called homosexual community, remember that Jesus loves you as much as he loves everyone else. To anyone out there who is experiencing a problem or locked into any kind of sin, sickness, condition, problem, struggle (including Roman 7 heterosexual christians), I encourage you to remember the young formerly blind man of John chapter 9. When he was put out of the synagogue, Jesus personally went and found him. It may take the church a couple of centuries to figure out what they should be doing, but in the mean time God is here for you right now!

Peace & Grace to all and hang in there!

Hang in there!

Pastor Keith says....
I am very disheartened that this issue is even being discussed. Divorced Pastors and women, though controversial, are a far cry from this abomination to the Lord. Homosexuality is Biblically and clearly wrong. It is not a matter of interpretation. It is a simple matter of accepting God's truth or rejecting it. My prayers go up for righteousness to prevail.

Pastor Keith says....
I am very disheartened that this issue is even being discussed. Divorced Pastors and women, though controversial, are a far cry from this abomination to the Lord. Homosexuality is Biblically and clearly wrong. It is not a matter of interpretation. It is a simple matter of accepting God's truth or rejecting it. My prayers go up for righteousness to prevail.

I realized something about those that we call homosexual, years ago, i.e., that any apparent male who was not automatically attracted to females was not lying about it, and he must be experiencing something different from what me and most of my friends were experiencing at the time.

For we, the so called heterosexuals, know what we experience when it comes to the female (even we we were youngsters). I can remember when I was a pre-school child and experienced my first, conscious, attraction(s) to the opposite sex, and no one had to teach me to be attracted to them.

For example when I would watch television, I remember the old Camay soap commercial that would come on TV in the 1950's, there was a beautiful naked woman sitting in the tub bathing herself with Camay Soap. Even though I did not know what sex was at that time, I knew that for some reason I wanted her to stand up.

Then I had a few more experiences. I was the last child at home, when both of my sibling brothers entered elementary school. One of my favorite past-times was when my mom's female friends would drop by. I would make sure that I was lying on the floor, usually playing with my toy car, when they arrived.

One of mom's friends would always call ahead when she was going to visit. I loved it, because she was my favorite. I would run and get my toy car and strategically place myself on the floor where I could get a good look up under her dress while pretending to play with my car. Since I was a cute little kid, she would always stop and play with me for a while. While she was playing with me, I would be checking her out. Guess what? no one taught me to do that and I don't believe (given that I was 3, 4 and 5 years old that I was in violation of Romans chapter 1.

During my pre-pubescent period, I heard that all boys masturbated. I tried to figure out what masturbation was, for people were talking about it and I had no idea of what they were talking about for if all boys were supposed to do it, I thought that I was failing at something.

I grew up in a fundamentalist christian household, ergo I could not ask anyone what they were talking about so I looked up the term masturbation in the dictionary. All the dictionary told me was that masturbation was self-abuse. What was self-abuse, I wondered? Do you know that I did not figure out what masturbation was until I was 19 years old. And, I learned what it was from the new series of books that were circulating in America at the time, telling us everything that we wanted to know about sex.

One day and for some reason mom left the kids at home when she went to church; that kind of thing never happened in our house. I spontaneously gathered up some blank sheets of paper, along with pencils, and began to draw. The subject of my drawings, human sexuality. I began to draw sexually explicit pictures of men and women engaging in sexual coitus. Now please understand, I knew nothing about the female anatomy and understood very little about the man's either, so, these pictures were not anatomically correct. They were probably more caricatures than anything else, particularly given the explicit sexual comments that I have captioned along with each drawing.

I was going to destroy the pictures before mom or dad returned home, however, the phone rang and I ended up engaging in a long conversation with a friend. How long? Long enough for me to lay the pictures on my mom's bed, where I answered the phone, and forget them. At 9:00 am, bedtime, I went to bed.

Well, you can guess what happened next, at about 9:30 pm when my mother returned home from church, I heard a loud scream. My memory was immediately jarred and I thought, oh no, the pictures. Well, all hell broke loose that night in our christian home(-: When my mom was angry with you, she called you by your first, middle and last name. I heard all of my names being called, first, middle and surname as I sat up in bed. You know, mom never looked at me the same again. From that day on she made sure that she was fully covered when her little kid was around.

Again, no one taught me to be attracted to or curious about females. But years later I came to understand that there were boys and men who simply were not attracted to females and they were not kidding about it. When I was 17, I was attending an ecumenical service at one of our mid-western community churches, when someone tapped me on the shoulder at the pew where I was sitting.

I was told that someone wanted to see me, so I got up and walked outside of the church. There stood one off the musicians from the church, a man about 30-40 years of age, and a boy that I recognized from my high school. They were both standing there waiting for me. I walked up and said, yes? The older man, smiled and said that I heard that you were graduating from high school this year. He went on to say that I want to buy you a present. Both of them had strange smiles on their faces and I knew that something was amiss. I said, no thank you, and turned around and walked back into the church to enjoy the remainder of the service.

During the remainder of the service, a group of angry young men were glaring at me from across the church and in a most threatening manner, in fact they were blocking the entrance to the church. One young man seemed to mimic the words, "we are going to get you". When my girlfriend came down from the choirstand and we were about to leave, I asked her to get her girlfriends and to surround me so that we could walk through this group and exit the church. She had no idea what was going on, however, but eventually complied. That night I walked out of church surrounded by a group of women as we walked through a group of very angry and apparently gay males, with one mimicking with his lips, "we are going to get you". Remind you of Genesis 19?

Given that experience with the so called heterosexual community, you can see that I do not have any reason to be sympathetic with their issues, I should be one who condemns. However, I try to be like Jesus who would even spoke compassionately to the ignorance of those who wanted his death. I see a need!

I apologize for being so long-winded, but I am trying to help someone, so bear with me a bit longer as I share a couple of stories with you that occurred years later and after I had begun pastoring.

The Lord showed me a vision of a young man that was then a member of my California congregation, for I had long after relocated to the West Coast. In the vision I saw this young man, a faithful member of my congregation, walk into a house that was surrounded with darkness deep darkness, i.e., the kind of darkness that we refer to when we talk about black holes in outer space. In the vision I was trying to peer in and determine what he was doing, for I knew that something was amiss. Although there were windows in the house you could not see inside of the windows. I knew that God was showing me something, as he often does, when he wants me to address an issue. Usually, I am to tell some one that God is looking at them or has heard their prayer.

At the right time, I met with the brother and shared the vision that God had given me. He immediately dropped his head and confessed, pastor, I am a homosexual. He said that there was a house that he frequented in Berkeley California where homosexuals would go to perform homosexual acts. Further he added, pastor, I have tried to stop being homosexual, however it keeps coming back. He went on to say that he had been involved with a gentleman of another race that he had broken off the relationship with him several times. The problem, his former lover would go away for a while, but soon afterwards he would start calling him again.

He said, pastor, I can abstain for long periods of time but after a while I lapse right back into the same behavior. Then he looked directly at me and waited to be condemned. He was surprisingly disappointed, for I reached out to him in love.

I explained to him what I explain to all people when God shows me something about them, first of all it was not me who saw your condition, it was God. I went on to say that God did not show me you, for me to condemn you but rather to help deliver you, John 3:15 and 16, for you know that there is no way that I know what I know unless God showed me. He understood! Yes, I explained, God wants to deliver you. He went on to say that I was praying for that, and that I was ashamed (remember Adam and Eve in the Garden) and could not bring myself to tell anyone that I was homosexual.

I told him that he was welcome in the church and that I would do all that I could to help him, for we have all come short of the glory of God in some way. In one of our follow-up sessions he asked, pastor, where does homosexuality come from? He wanted to know how he could get rid of it? He then went on to open up even more, he explained that when he was a youngster living in West Virginia that he was repeatedly raped and molested as a child. When he became an adult, he could no longer resist the sexual confusion that was going on inside. So he decided to relocate to the west coast, like many people do, so that he could come out of the closet.

However, somewhere along the way he met some Christians who had become members of my church who brought him to Christ. Those believers then brought him to our church. He was faithful to the church, although he secretly continued to struggle with his sexuality. Although, he knew that Christ loved him, he kept his secret from the church for he anticipated a negative reaction. I believe that the Lord sent him to our fellowship, for he was not condemned. Instead, we joined in with him, encouraged him, prayed with him, loved him and even listened to him. He taught me a lot.

Another fine member of our church, a female this time, asked to talk with me about something that had bothered her for years. This young woman was married and had a beautiful young daughter. She loved the Lord and was faithful to the church. She said pastor, there is something bothering me and it has been bothering me for years. I had no idea where she was going with this. She went on to say that I know that Jesus truly came into my life, but I still feel condemned about something that I experienced years ago.

For years ago, I was an athlete, and while in the locker room I engaged in a lesbian act with another female. Now, although she believed that God had forgiven her, somehow she still felt condemned; she simply could not get over that youthful experience. We know that many people wrestle with forgiving themselves even after Christ has forgiven them. I ministered with her and continued to counsel her, for initially she was sad and she also expected to be condemned, (for many have come to know the church as a place of condemnation and not help and liberation). I told her to hold her head up. I thanked her for having enough confidence in me to share this significant event in her life. For she said, I have never felt comfortable enough to tell anyone else what she had told me. She was set free in her mind and went off to freely enjoy her marriage!

Where does the feeling of condemnation come from? Well, I propose that it does not come from God but rather it comes from the church (those who mix bias with their faith and behavior). As Jesus told the woman taken in the act of adultery, "...neither do I condemn you". Ministers, should we be liberators, or those who condemn (when we know that all of us have sinned ourselves and come short of the glory of God)?

Not all are called to every ministry, and clearly some ministers have not been called to the ministry of liberation, however, I appeal to all of you to to at least be sensitive. I recall a minister from Southern California who once said, as I continue to grow and evolve in Christ, the more I haved learn to silence myself. Who was the writer who once said, "The more I find out the less I know"?.

Pastor Keith, I was not ignoring your questions, in fact I did not know that they were directed to me, I missed it (3 times I guess). In some ways I believe that we are talking about apples and oranges, for I am certainly not condoning sin. However, let me answer your questions by sharing something else that God showed me.

He showed me a minister who was standing before his congregation in the rostrum and behind his pulpit. The minister was holding two clear vials in either hand that were full of some clear substance, perhaps water. As the minister would turn his whole body about, the substance in one vial would decrease as the substance in the other vial would increase.

Peace & Grace
Rev. C. Solomon

So here is how I see it. The Pastor is the shepherd...the teacher, people follow in their footsteps whether they like it or not. "the Pastor does it...so that must make it right" Well I think that Pastors are held to a higher standard...yes...they are human, but homosexuality is a sin, is a sin, is a sin...if there is a Pastor that is a homosexual...it is WRONG!!!! I am sorry ladies..I am a woman too, but I do not agree with women pastors either...it makes me uncomfortable...women are not to teach to men over 18...leading bible studies, I have no problem with...being a director of a Childrens or women's ministry, I have no problem with. The object of "love" really shouldn't come into play...You really want me to believe that Jesus would go up to one of these "gay" pastors and say...Keep up the good work...NO...He would say, go and sin no more. It is not right and for people to claim that there is a need for acceptance on such a matter is ridiculous!!!!!!!!! I am greatly concerned for the way that Christians think nowadays. "Oh...we must not offend!!!" Well I think what matters most is are we offending God!!!!!!!!!!! Come on people...please take heed: God sees all...He knows all and you will be held accountable for what you have said...what you allow and it's not going to be pretty. He is just...He is almighty and I am embarrassed by this show of complacincy!

As I remember it the whole point of this post was "is it right to allow 'gay pastors' and 'gay churches' to utilize this forum to seek one another?"

Just as we were beginning to address BIBLICAL truth (I'll restate the questions to help again at the end of this message) all of the sudden the discussion started to switch to how "compassionate one is in working with those who need help to leave the lifestyle."

The problem is, Rev. Solomon and others here have advocated there is NOTHING TO LEAVE!!! It's okay for the pastor to live the life openly, to seek churches that encourage this lifestyle and that there is no sin here.

If I may bring us back to the point... BIBLICALLY, IT IS SIN.

This isn't based on personal biased, I have family and friends who are gay. This is based on the word of God. And more to the point the ORIGINAL issue wasn't do we love these folks? The ORIGINAL issue is do we allow them to pastor or more specifically do we let churches and pastors of this mindset seek one another on this forum.

After watching Manfred's response to the discussion. "Those he affirms in his email for their thoughtful discussion and willingness to dialogue, I'd say its pretty obvious where he stands." I wonder what he did on the original issue anyhow?

So yet again to address the ORIGINAL ISSUE

The teaching is pretty obvious for those who "would see."
1. God showed his plan for families and sexuality in Genesis.
2. It was restated in the law regarding marriage AND sexuality issues.
3. It was reaffirmed by Jesus when he said, "A man shall leave his parents.... cleave unto his wife and the two shall become one."
4. It was restated AGAIN by Paul in Romans when he warned against homosexuality.
5. Ephesians 5 discusses YET AGAIN GOD'S plan that also mirrors the church and Christ!

Given all of this (and I've only scratched the surface.) I’d say God’s position on it is pretty obvious.

Perhaps you could show the following please.

1. Where God said homosexual relationships are to be a model to follow for his church and/or kingdom?

2. Where in Levitical law are proper guidelines for a homosexual relationship outlined?

3. Where did Jesus affirm homosexuality?

4. Where ANY passage in the Bible affirms, or encourages a homosexual union?

(I can show you plenty that discourage it. Although, some may attempt to argue cultural reasons against each passage I give; The fact is where the Bible interprets the Bible the following is obvious...)

Support and affirmation of a gay relationship as normative or encouraged = 0 passages.

Places where it is strictly forbidden or male/female is presented as God's ideal = numerous passages.

Given the answers to the questions above... how can one assume it is right to allow ministers who profess to be involved in romantic homosexual relationships?

In HIS love,
Keith

(please note, the difference, I've signed all my letters "keith" not Pastor Keith.

Ephphatha...!

For those of you who are not familiar, this was the word that Jesus chose to use in Mark 7 vs 34. Let me begin my response today, to a couple of entries that I just read on the blog, with the words of Jesus, Ephphatha. I prayerfully submit this term to all of my sisters and brothers in Christ who are reading this blog! Please study it.

Someone wrote into the blog saying, that the object of "love" really shouldn't come into play...? I simply have to respond to that (for as Jesus did, I feel a groaning in my spirit today), for this is where I believe that the disconnect is really coming into play in this whole discussion. It took the Apostles a long time to grasp it, i.e., that all of what Jesus did was motivated by LOVE, John 3:16, 17, for God is Love.

Nothing that we do or say for Christ should be done without THE LOVE working and abiding in us, for Paul explained in ! Corinthians 8, when an issue arose that was dividing the church at Corinth, that love was preferable to knowledge (even knowledge that causes us to theosophy so much), for knowledge puffs people up as its appeal is to the flesh and not God.

In the beginning of their walk with Jesus, many of the Apostles had their own ideas as to why Jesus was here, including the setting up a new political kingdom on earth that would free them from their oppressors and provide places of ascendency for them in this new earth-bound kingdom. They thought that Jesus thought in the manner that they did, therefore they were zealous and anxious, initially, to get on with the work. Given their limited understanding mixed with fervor, they struck out with zeal. On one occasion they proudly proclaimed that even the devils are subject to us. They were shocked when they later discovered that the mission of Jesus Christ, here on earth, had a completely different purpose, i.e., My Father works and hitherto I work, and I must do the works of him that sent me, Jesus said.

They were shocked even more when among other things, they found their master Jesus cavorting with sinners, and spending time with the Samaritan dogs, and even with children who would come to him, not to mention demoniacs...

Thankfully, the Apostles eventually learned and grasped that the mission of Jesus was neither to condemn nor to accuse; we must all learn that lesson as well. They also learned that Jesus was certainly not here to elevate them to places of prominence in a secular earth bound quasi-religious system, or to repeat the system of class stratification that had been accustomed to and wanted to escape. In fact, Peter was confronted by Jesus (on several occasions) and even by the Apostle Paul with regard to his unconscious drive(s) and motivations (Spirit).as they related to the Kingdom, Christ's work and his embedded racism, bigotry and apparent feelings of superiority.

For Peter who walked with Christ at the onset was a fiery orator, one who performed miracles and eventually became Chief Apostle. However, he was also one who would quickly pull out his sword and whack someone's ears off if he were not constrained. But listen to the Peter of 2 Peter 2:18 after he was converted and had grown in the knowledge of Christ himself. He said, "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory, both now and forever. Amen".

It took time for Peter to grow unto the stature of what God intended for him. And it will take time for us to grow as well. Since the scripture teaches us that the sword is the word, how many of us are as quick as Peter was, to pull out our sword and to whack away, not only at someone's ears but also at their hearts! When I first wrote into the blog I was whacked and practically tossed from the Kingdom for mis-attributing a quotation due to my apparent early onset of Alzheimer's, mixed with my eagerness to respond(-: I have experienced more compassion from people who do not claim to know Christ.

Although Peter was a disciple who walked with Jesus for years, performed many miracles, walked on water and preached a great sermon(s), he also had to grow in grace and in the knowledge Jesus Christ. Let me repeat that, 'grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ'. Jesus did not act as Peter or the other Apostles thought that he should act or in the manner that some of us would expect today. Jesus was always in trouble for his non-compliance with the rules and laws, see John Chapter 8 and 9. In both chapters we have the zealots who were there to condemn, even accusing Jesus of being a sinner for being around a sinful woman and what who they wanted us to believe was a sinful blind man. All this type wants to do is condemn others and exonerate themselves!

But keep in mind, Jesus told Peter that he would have to be converted. We have many today in the churches who are disciples, some who are still waiting on conversion, and some who do not understand that there is a conversion that they are need of themselves. Like the early Apostles they go on missionary journeys, but they have never been converted themselves. Eventually, we must get beyond the letter that killeth, and come to understand grace and truth is accepting the ministry of reconciliation. For it does not excuse sin [not evenour own], rather it seeks to bring all to Christ in order to receive his free gift. For all have all sinned and come short of the glory, and for some of you the word of God as you understand it.

No, Reverend Solomon would not say, THERE IS NOTHING TO LEAVE, but I would do as Jesus did, I would lovingly go and get everyone I can {led by the Spirit of course], whosoever will, and bring them to Christ, just as Christ did with All of US. I do not push people away, I have never seen where Jesus did that!. Don't be like the self-righteous accusers of John chapters 8 and 9, just accusing people, not to mention, Jesus of being sinners. Have any of you considered why the promise of the Holy Spirit that was fulfilled in Acts 2 was not made to the existing church prototype where there was already a temple and priests et al? Why? Religious people can be very hard to reach.

I have more to say, but I have taken up so much space on this blog. So let me close with this. Have any of you ever had Jesus to come and get you? I have shared this only with a few people.

I was in my bed one night in El Cerrito California, when something stirring in the room woke me up from sleep. I turned over to see what it was that was taking place in my room. To the left of my bed (Acts 10), I saw a bust of a being suspended in mid-air. I literally almost jumped out of the bed. Assuming that I had been sleep and dreaming, I kept waiting to fully awake. Immediately the being began to communicate with me that I, "did not have to be afraid". Now understand this, the being never opened its mouth, but having sensed that I was afraid, albeit I tried to calm myself, it tried to calm me..

After assuring myself that I was fully awake, I communicated back to the being that but I am afraid. I then began reaching for the light. The being communicated again that I did not have to be afraid.and that I did not have to turn on the light as my hand reached for it.

Some time later, I was in bed when a figure came (the same as it did when I on Maui a few years ago), and took me away and out of my body. I recognized that it was or represented Jesus. He took me into another dimension and had me to walk with him. Ironically, he was simple in terms of of his vestiture, and did not appear or act as one would expect. He was also so calm and caring and loving and without any seeming cares. I followed him to his small carpenter's shop, where I experienced his unassuming nature as he went about his business as he allowed me to observe. All I could feel was love, and an awareness that Jesus is not like the perception that one would get from religion at all. Get it? Jesus, doesn't act like us, not even in our cynicisms. I know of no place where he walked up to any of his children and cynically said, just continue on....and keep up the good work!.

After I spent time with him be placed me back in my body. I was shocked as I was placed back in the body, for I never realized before the amount of weight and the pain that I carried about in this body of death, as Paul referred to in Roman chapter 7:24, where I currently reside.

My sisters and brothers keep your zeal and fervor for the Lord, but as Peter had to learn, and explained so eloquently in 2 Pet 3:18, grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And give God the glory, and "BE OPENED!

If you want to help people you must be equipped with more than three words, i.e., you are a sinner!

Rev. C. Solomon


P.S. I don't know Manfred or any of you, but as the folks did in John 8 and 9, someone is already assuming what he believes, and is accusing him. It seems to me that he is showing compassion and the love of Christ in creating this forum for all us to communicate!

And as for me, I believe that ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS is Sin--

To even raise the question whether a homosexual should be considered as an elder in a church shows how far the church has drifted from the teaching of the Bible. May God have mercy.

Consider thyself...

Well it appears that the discussion has come to an end for some of you. I suspect that some of you who were exposed to a difference of opinion have simply turned away. However, remember what the scripture said, i.e.,

Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Gal 6:1.

Sadly, I did not hear any of you (the spiritual) say that we should obey this scripture with respect to this church, and I did not detect much meekness with regard to this church that reached out to us!

I believe that Jesus would have used this opportunity for outreach, just as he reaches out to each of us today. For we are no better. Remember, Satan is after all of us!

James 1:19, 20, says, brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

I believe that the Religous Right, during the period that Jesus walked the earth were the Pharisees, Scribes and Saduceeds. They were conservatives and keepers of the trust, always accusing, quoting scriptures and imputing blame as a substitute for having the Holy Spirit living inside. Jesus, on more than one occasion, rebuked the Right of his time for their pride, hypocrisy, arrogance, traditions, self-righteousness and misapplication of scripture, not to mention substituing their agendas for his plan of salvation.

Some of you may wonder where I stand, I stand with Jesus, who would be considered a bleeding heart liberal today. And just as he was not accepted by the Right of his day, ending up on the cross, he is not being accepted in the hearts of men and women in the institutional church of today. Even though his words are on their lips, their hearts are far from him.

Jesus never waivered from the truth but was merciful and compassionate (see John 8:3-15), even with one who was guilty of a capital crime, a law breaker. For he came to seek those who were lost, not to condemn or to turn them away. Jesus cared for the poor, and the social justice issues of that day. Jesus got involved with the the poor, the sick, the sinners and despised and rejected of his day.

I also believe that the Pharisees of today are those who consider themselves to be the Right of our day. These appear to be bible legalists who have never come to understand or experience the spirit or love that is contained within the scriptures, the same spirit who wants to take up residence in their hearts. These are they who do not seem to understand God's eternal plan.

The body of Christ must once again beware of the leaven of the Pharisees! For it is with their mouths that they worship him, but their hearts are far from him. Their ways are not his ways.

Some of you missed out on a golden opportunity for loving outreach to this church! One writer wrote in this wise, 'The More That I Find Out the Less That I Know'. For some of you it seems to be the opposite, ie., the more you find out the more that you believe that you know. The scripture teaches that the man who thinketh that he knows something, knows nothing at all. And I caution you that if you continue in that vein, you will not be prepared to meet the issues that are re-emergining in the twenty-first century (nothing short of spiritual warfare).

The issue of homosexuality and other complex issues are not going away, its going to get worse. And your sons and daughters are being being affected and will be affected even more!

Again forgive the length of my discourse again, but I must share another story. Some years ago, some of you won't understand this, God showed me something. He showed me a period of my life where Satan would, as he spoke to me, "seek to cut you off, shut you off and destroy you". He showed me wounds, pus, black and decayed skin. He showed me that Satan thought that he would have taken me down for the count. Then he showed me the appearance of one who would be with me every place that I would go. I turned to that man to enquire as to who he was. He spoke saying, "greater is he that is in you that he that is in the world...If God is for you he is greater than the world against you...?

And God's final words to me were that no matter what Satan tries to do, "within that arm is the Seal of Abraham" God is reaching out to save all that was lost and you should be doing the same!

And as Paul wrote in Colossians 1:9-11, For this cause we also since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding,

That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work; and increasing in the knowledge of God, Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness...

Do not allow the cruel, wayward and harsh dispensational teachings of today take you away from the spirit, word, grace and truth of Jesus Christ! Christ came to seek those who are lost. If you have been found, you should be doing the same, reaching out to others.

I am praying for you!

Peace & Grace!
Reverend C. Solomon &
The Seal of Abraham

After all this discussion and reading some comments here I feel this is important to make the following statement.

I hereby declare, "No weapon formed against me, my family or my children will prosper!" I renounce and reject all word curses spoken against me or those in my family. I further bind all spirits who would seek to do harm. I also send them and the curses to the foot of the cross in Jesus name. To be returned to the one(s) who sent them. I further declare in the blessed name of Jesus that all doors are CLOSED to lying deceiving spirits or those who would seek to harm my household. I forgive them for their sin. For those who have been praying against me or seeking harm or evil to me or those connected to me... I forgive them. Having forgiven them, I bless them in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST the Lord. Specifically I reject every form of death, sickness, infirmity, disease, viruses allergies and every form of witchcraft, cures or spell casting. I thank you Father, that in your son, Jesus' blood I have passed out from under the curse and am now under the blessing of Abraham whom you blessed in all things. I futher ask you Lord to surround my household with your strong warrior angels to protect me in all my ways. And finally Lord I ask you send your strongest offensive warrior angels to them who would seek to do my household harm. Tear down their walls of resistance to your Holy Spirit and destroy the demonic walls they have built to protect themselves as their curses return to them.

Through the blessing of your Holy Spirit and by the blood of Jesus Christ. Amen.

In HIS love,
Keith

This is my last word on this. Unless something is spoken against me..

I wanted to yet again post some guidance questions to help some discover the truth of what the Bible says on their own... Do your own study in reference to the following...

The teaching is pretty obvious for those who "would see."
1. God showed his plan for families and sexuality in Genesis.
2. It was restated in the law regarding marriage AND sexuality issues.
3. It was reaffirmed by Jesus when he said, "A man shall leave his parents.... cleave unto his wife and the two shall become one."
4. It was restated AGAIN by Paul in Romans when he warned against homosexuality.
5. Ephesians 5 discusses YET AGAIN GOD'S plan that also mirrors the church and Christ!

Given all of this (and I've only scratched the surface.) I’d say God’s position on it is pretty obvious.

Perhaps you could show the following please.

1. Where God said homosexual relationships are to be a model to follow for his church and/or kingdom?

2. Where in Levitical law are proper guidelines for a homosexual relationship outlined?

3. Where did Jesus affirm homosexuality?

4. Where ANY passage in the Bible affirms, or encourages a homosexual union?

(I can show you plenty that discourage it. Although, some may attempt to argue cultural reasons against each passage I give; The fact is where the Bible interprets the Bible the following is obvious...)

Support and affirmation of a gay relationship as normative or encouraged = 0 passages.

Places where it is strictly forbidden or male/female is presented as God's ideal = numerous passages.

Lastly, here are two links that inform the discussion. Both are from former gay and lesiban lifestyles. They discus how the church HELPED them.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/012/36.50.html

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/002/36.62.html

In HIS love,
Keith

Sorry...
Those links should end with

.html

not

.h

Just make sure your last four characters are .html (not .h)

Although a day late, I simply want to wish each of you a wondrous and blessed Holiday Season!! I did not intend to blog during this period, however, a friend was on the computer and asked me if I wanted to use it. At first I said no, then I thought why not! I am glad that I did.

In response to something that I just read on the blogsite, let me say this and I believe that I can speak for every person who has ever used this blog, that even though we may not all agree on certain issues, none of us wishes any ill will to any of the others. I also want to share this story.

Around 1979 I was pastoring, but I had a hunger to learn even more about how to minister to the 'needs of people'. I asked God to show me even more, how to minister to the needs of the people? Through a strange convergence of events, I took a sabbatical from my pastoral role and joined the staff of a mental health center. I quickly realized that it was God answering my prayer.

I was shocked at what I saw and was involved with during that 4-year period. During that period, I was reminded of Jesus actually getting out there with the people, during his public ministry, and meeting them at the point of their need(s). While acting in an assistant pastor's role under another pastor, I took on a full-time position as counselor at the center. The director felt that my pastoral experience and background would be beneficial to all of those who came in for services or help. Were my eyes ever opened!

I worked both day and night shifts and carried a case-load. During the wee hours of the morning I would answer suicide lines. I was also involved with crisis intervention with walk-ins, people being brought over by the police departments, and others who had been referred to us by the court system. Every problem that one could imagine was coming into that center. There were hurting homosexuals, the chemically dependent, suicidal individuals, criminals, alcoholics, divorced and divorcees, depressed, distressed, people out of work, and individuals who appeared to be so stable during the day-time, you name it they were coming, and the doors of this secular institution was never closed to anyone!

Each person that came to the center, at some point, completed paper-work. To a person each one would identify his religous affilation. All of these individuals identified with a church.

Above our heads was another center. I noticed in the beginning of my tenture, on a daily basis, teenage girls walking upstairs to this center. I could see them from our office windows. They were young girls who appeared to be no more than 14 to 16 years of age. Why? These children were going upstairs to have abortions performed.

[And we are all familiar with legislation that says that these underage children do not require the consent of their parents to have these terminations performed].

I walked upstairs one day and inquired, how many abortions are you performing? I was informed, that in that single location, 188 abortions were being performed each month. Yes, the Lord answered my prayer and placed me right in the midst of the needs of the people. Why are they coming here I wondered with their problems and not down to us at the church? Why are our children going upstairs for abortions?

Where are the parents I wondered, for these kids are too young to be making such a decision? Do the parents even know that their babies are coming to these places with a myriad of problems? Why are people that I know who belong to various congregations coming here?

I even offered to, or would recuse myself from some interventions and treatments, because of the hardship that it would cause to individuals who knew me and knew that I knew their families and pastors.

One young lady, after her 5th abortion, came downstairs for counseling help, abortion to her had been birth-control. She was having repetitive dreams of being pregnant, however, each time she was about to deliver, a man in black would come and whisk away her baby. She couldn't stop the dreams or her feelings of despair. I could tell you hundreds if not thousands of more dramatic stories.

Having said that, if my comments were misconstrued especially about children, I want to correct that misunderstanding right away. I do not wish any ill-will to anyone's children. I simply know that many children are not telling their parents or the church what is going on in their lives. I also recognize that there is an epidemic out there and it is spreading. And the children, as well as adults with their problems, are going to perfect strangers for help. And many that seek out for help are not believers. Why, brothers and sisters in Christ?

I do not believe in curses or reverse curses, and I would never dream of doing such a thing. I wish everyone of you a blessed life in Christ Jesus and if anything that I have said before has been misconstrued, I have been misunderstood. I want to help and I want others to join in the fight just as Jesus did and would do now.